Thanks for that. Fun little website.
Have you tried either of the Porter recipes? They look intriguing but without any tasting notes…hard to say if either will help me get what I’m after. I’m not looking to recreate the past, just simply trying to hit that Goal in post #1.
No, I haven’t tried them. But Durden Park has been acknowledged as having great info for as long as I’ve been brewing.
So I brewed that last weekend as written with the exception of an additional 3oz of Victory that I had left and had no plans for. A little housecleaning.
My goal was to have flavors along the cookie-biscuit-caramel-toffee-chocolate spectrum and by a cooled, post-boil sample I would say I’m more ~~cookie-biscuit-~~caramel-toffee-chocolate range. Passed a sample taste to the wife who has a much better palate than I do and her first reaction was, “Chocolate!”. We shall see what the fermentation decides to do with it…
…which, as an aside, was an interesting twist to the brew session. I took a reasonably fresh (7/22/23), very flat pack of 1028 out of the fridge before I started heating my water, smacked the pack and let it warm up for the next 4+ hours. The pack barely swelled at all during this time, I mean only a smidge. Hmm. Having been burned once before I was a little hesitant - but also having no other reasonable options in stock, I pitched the yeast anyway. Pitched at 65° and it fell to 62° (within the 60-72° range) and I had no activity after 18-20 hours. OK. RDWHAHB. I moved the fermenter to 67° ambient and finally saw the most disinterested signs of life from 1028 after 30 hours. Now, at 48 hours I have a nice, thick krausen and steady air-lock activity. Last time I used 1028 (in a Brown Ale) I had clear signs of life in about 12-15 hours, so this was a bit concerning and I’m just thankful I didn’t have to make my first English Porter with Mexican lager yeast! ;D
In the end this turned out to be a rather decent English Porter, but nothing spectacular. It drinks fine, nice aroma, bitterness is in line, color is plenty dark enough, foam is good (though head retention is a little disappointing).
The chocolate is still present but it’s starting to lean a bit too roasty for me, too Stout-like. Again. I’m finding it a bit annoying that I can’t seem to land in that caramel-toffee-chocolate range I was hoping for, always ending up with too much roast. And 1028, while fine, did not leave the body and mouthfeel I was hoping for. I’ll give a little love to Pilgrim however, a nice herbal presence without that characteristic English earthy thing. I would like to try these hops in a Mild where they might be able to shine a bit more.
So while I’ll happily drink this beer, I will do so knowing I missed my mark yet again. My white whale.
Back to the drawing board.
Hmm. Well, I guess you’re going to have to go the route of Pete’s Wicked Ale, and use 20-25% medium to dark crystal malts, with only a couple ounces of dark malt(s) as needed for hints of flavor and color adjustment. This might sound like a lot of crystal, but it works, if you are going for a good detectable amount of caramel/toffee.
Yeah, I’m a bit stumped.
I do think the grain bill is the biggest culprit. I guess I pushed the Brown Malt too far. Up the crystal, I agree. But some Munich would have helped as well. Torrified Wheat might be a nice addition.
I also need a yeast that will leave some mouthfeel, some body. Why I used 1028 here, I have no idea. But next go will definitely be with one of Windsor, 1450 or 1968. Maybe S-04 if I can work myself up to try it again.
Plenty of time to think about it. I won’t make another Porter for 6 months. I’ll nail it next time!
I do appreciate all of the suggestions, everyone.
imho to get this in the most in your face way with malt would be 2-4% english chocolate malt in the 400 to 475 lovibond range, 5-9% pale chocolate malt and then some mix of 2-4% 90-120L crystal malt and maybe 7-10% crystal in the 40-60lov range.
from brown malt i definitely get this coffee, elements of well toasted bread around that area with a kind of hard brusqueness to it. i know this thread had a lot of recommendations but this is me saying this after slowly going through a very successful imp chocolate stout that was 100% in your face dark chocolate. gave some to coworkers and they generally loved it and immediately said chocolate, one was surprised when i said it was all barley.
I appreciate that and notes have been taken. Next time I give this a go I will be checking my pride at the door.
Given (certainly debatable) a malt flavor progression of…
Caramel
Toffee
Raisin
Toast
Nutty
Mocha
Chocolate
Coffee
Roasted
Ashy
…I can’t seem to bring in chocolate without going past it - like the beer I just made which has clear chocolate notes but also coffee and roast. It’s a blur between a Stout and a Porter (as I define them) and I’m struggling to separate them. Seems when I try to ease off I go too far the other way and make a nice Brown Ale. ;D
might also try different yeast choices too. ill say i used bry97 and i felt like the malts pretty clearly came through, i didnt plan on getting any esters, just wanted clean ale
Maybe you could try a small amount of cocoa nibs, just enough for the chocolate flavor but not enough to identify the source?
I definitely need a different yeast. The best Porters I have made in the past were with yeasts that leave a nice body and mouthfeel. Windsor, 1450, 1968. 1028 certainly didn’t bring any of that to the party, imo.
I’m a BRY-97 fan for sure and I find it the perfect yeast for my house Stout, but I’m hesitant to try it in this Porter because I don’t believe it will give me that chewiness I’m looking for. Could be I’m overthinking this though.
I considered that, but I can’t believe that I’m unable to land in the caramel-toffee-chocolate zone using malt only. How hard can it be? ;D
Again, there’s nothing wrong with the beer I made but it is definitely more chocolate-coffee-slight roast and in hindsight, the Brown malt at 14% is an easy place to point the finger. I think fred is right. I just need to land on the correct mix of chocolate and crystal malts.
You may have answered this already, if, so sorry for the duplicate question. Is there a particular commercial beer that has the caramel toffee chocolate flavor you like?
Do a search for the recipe for Cigar City Maduro Brown Ale. It has won several times at GABF as an English Brown Porter. It has a nice chocolate flavor, very little roast and a lot of mouthfeel from using flaked oats.
I made a batch last year - 65% pale malt, 12.5% Briess 60L, 7.5% flaked oats, 7.5% Wy Vienna, 5% Crisp Brown, 2.5% Briess Chocolate
I used BRY-97 and about 26 IBU’s of Clusters and Edelweisse
If I made it again I would decrease the oats, but other than that, it made a pretty good English Porter.
One doesn’t immediately come to mind, no. Maybe I hate this style?? 
I’ve never had Fuller’s London Porter because it just isn’t available near me and SS Taddy Porter is a fine beer but I find that a bit on the roasty side. Yuengling Porter is a bit of a throwback and does have a caramel-chocolate thing going for it, but it lacks body.
I’m open to suggestions.
Will do! Thanks for the suggestion.
youngs double chocolate stout has some kind of chocolate extract added to it and it is a powerfully chocolatey beer without being american-craft style extreme.
if youre searching for the chocolate-caramel thing, get that first and think of mouthfeel second. id totally recommend a “clean” ale yeast. if you want english maybe wlp007? but dont overthink it.
i infused UNTOASTED (my mistake at the time) cacao nibs in vodka for a while and added this infusion to some bottles of that chocolate stout. it took a long time for it to come together, and overall i prefered the non-added. the vodka tincture itself did not taste chocolatey to me but sort of harsh-nutty to me.
speaking of extracts, if you really want chocolate (and caramel) maybe just buy a chocolate flavour additive? i hear theyre really good and chocolate is a well known flavour. also people swear by the notion that adding a small amount of vanilla extract interplays with any chocolate notes and reinforces it as “chocolate” in your mind.
Thanks for all the suggestions.
My issue is not getting chocolate, I’m getting that just fine. My issue is pairing that with some milder flavors. Seems every time I get chocolate, I also get coffee and roast tagging along. Maybe that’s a function of the Crisp Pale Chocolate I’m using, or the percentage that I’m using it at?? Or, in this case, it very well could have been the heavy-handed usage of Crisp Brown (a malt I love, by the way).
So, I’m aiming for the Caramel-Toffee-Nutty-Raisin spectrum with some subtle notes of Chocolate and no coffee/roast.
I did a cacao nibs tincture twice and wasn’t impressed either time. Undoubtedly I did it wrong, but I have no intentions of making nibs a permanent part of any recipe. I’ll just use them every time I get on a good brewing run and find myself in need of a good humbling. ;D Vanilla is a nice suggestion and I agree, it is a great flavor enhancer. Still, I think I can get this right with grain only.
The recipe that jeffy posted for CC Maduro Brown is intriguing. It seems to take a lot of suggestions hidden in this thread and make sense of them - push the crystal, drop the Brown, make the recipe a bit busier to bring in a variety of flavors. Maybe needs a tweak to push it out of Brown territory, but there’s something there. Too bad I have to drive 80 miles to find one in the wild. Hopefully I’ll get to inspect a Maduro Brown before I give this Porter another attempt in the fall.
Without re-reading 3 pages, I’m about to try again to land an English Porter in the caramel/toffee/chocolate zone without getting into coffee and roast notes.
Last time I failed (and the dozen times before that!). So…here I go again, chasing my tail. ;D
Here was my last attempt:
68% Maris Otter
14% Crisp Brown
9% 65L English Crystal
7% Pale Chocolate (220L)
2% Victory
≈ 30 IBU’s Pilgrim
WY1028
My next attempt, this weekend, will look like this:
64% Deer Creek Pale
13% 65L English Crystal
7% Torrified Wheat
7% Deer Creek Double Dutch (20L Munich)
5% Brown
3% Pale Chocolate (220L)
1% Chocolate (500L)
≈ 28 IBU’s Northern Brewer (A bit upset I couldn’t find Pilgrim again)
WY1968
The idea is to drop that Brown malt way back to cut the coffee flavor, up the crystal to try and bring in a bit more caramel, add the Munich and wheat for body purposes, and change the yeast for added body as well.
No doubt I’ve got it this time. I can feel it. 
Have you tried adding the roast malts at vorlauf? It may not be the recipe but the technique to bring out the character you’re looking for.
Just an idea.