I do a simple BIAB…mash then pull the grains then proceed to boil. By “Vorlauf” I assume you would mean adding the roast malts after pulling the main grains, but before I add heat and head to boil? Kind of a “steeping grains” process?
It’s a very interesting idea. I assume you believe this steeping of the dark malts would limit the roastiness that ends up in the finished beer? I don’t think I’d ever want to do this for a Stout, where I want all that coffee, roasty goodness, but for what I’m after here, I can see it working. If I don’t get it right this time, I’ll certainly give it a shot next time.
At one time, Gordon Strong preferred adding any dark grains late in the mash - vorlauf or equivalent. It may be an issue of pH driving that for the main mash, I don’t recall precisely. I have gone either way with dark grain additions and settled on Sinamar for dark lagers for the most part and late add for dark grains in ales.
So the above beer has been in the keg for a few weeks. It was a big step forward, though I didn’t get all the way there. The coffee and roast have been tamped down sufficiently and a nice chocolate caramel flavor is present. What I didn’t get was the body and chewy mouthfeel I was looking for. It does taste a bit “thin”.
This was mashed at 152° for an hour and fermented with 1968 London ESB. I ended up with 73% attenuation, a little more than I was expecting, but not out of line I don’t think. Holding a glass to the light, the beer is crystal clear. Last time I used 1028 and got 75% attenuation.
The flavors from the grain bill seem to be right around the bullseye, but I’m thinking the torrified wheat probably didn’t do much. The beer pours with a great head that hangs around long enough.
So how best to increase that chewiness?
Mash higher, say 155-156°?
Different yeast to lower attenuation? Windsor, 1469, S-04?
Flaked Barley as a sub for the torrified wheat? Flaked Oats? Never had much success with oats, unless an oily-ness is considered a success.
Lower the carbonation? I carbonated at 12psi and just left it there.
Adjust the water? This beer, after additions, had a “predicted” Cl = 140 and SO4 = 56?
Definitely an overall step in the right direction and a nice beer to drink. Not quite “perfect” though.
Checking my notes, I see where I used that Lal. London ESB in a Porter about 3 years ago. Reading my tasting notes on that beer would make you cry: “Nice chocolatey notes, low roast, great foam, body is a bit thin, very good but not an ideal English Porter…”. :-[ The attenuation on that was 67%.
About 4 years ago, I used Windsor in a Porter and got 59.68%, finishing at 1.025. While I was still dialing in the flavor on that one, I did note that the beer had a “smooth mouthfeel and not noticeably sweet despite gravity”. That was one of the best Porters I ever made, so I promptly changed everything to try and make it better. ;D
I do think carbonation could be a key factor here.
I would change out the torrified for flaked rye, barley, or wheat (any flaked will do), and maybe double it.
12 psi does seem a bit much, try 6 psi or thereabouts.
You are getting closer to your goal, so it might be best not to change too many variables at once. Leave the yeast and mash parameters alone for now. Don’t mess with the water. Small tweaks from here on out.
Yeah, looking at the 'ol carbonation chart, I’m too high at 41° and 12psi. According to the chart I shouldn’t be higher than 9, and 6 is probably better. This concept has always seemed a bit nebulous to me, but I really should try and pay more attention to the style on tap and what I set my gauge at.
this is my 2 cents and possibly not according with bjcp or other style guidelines, but i dont expect an english porter to have any extreme body but i also dont want them to be underattenuated. ive brewed a likely larger proportion of dark beers than many people, and there definitely is something to always trying to balance drinkability in a dark beer. every one doesnt need to be massive. i used bry97 in a stout just now after making 2 beers with an irish ale yeast. the bry97 hit 83% attenuation with a low mash and aboit 5% sugar added and its really in the zone. excellent taste
Appreciate your thoughts and I agree with most of the above.
I use BRY-97 in my Stout and it works perfectly for what I want that beer to be. Roasty, dry, clean, crushable. I feel I have that one down well enough. It’s my goal to make a Porter that is distinctly different. Low roast, more caramel and chocolate, more body, esters are welcome if they show up. Getting it exactly how I want it has been a challenge, but I’m starting to tighten the net. Does it have to be underattenuated? Certainly not. But I’m not looking for “dry”. What I’m after doesn’t have to be called an “English” Porter, but that seems to be about the closest style.
I’ve been using invert syrups in my English ales for a few years now, and I think it does a better job of matching that toffee/caramel character in English ales than Cara malts do. I haven’t tried brewing an English porter with them, but if I were to do it I’d definitely be targeting 5-10% of the fermentables with Invert #2 or Invert #3. I’d probably use another 5% or so of a crystal malt in the 60-90L range, because I do like that character in a Porter and it will help leave some body behind.
With English ales, i don’t think higher attenuation is as much of a problem as you’d think. Just be sure to keep the carbonation on the lower side and it will increase the perceived body.
I lowered the CO2 on this beer to about 8psi and felt the carbonation is still getting in the way. Serving temperature of ≈40°F is also contributing to the issue of thin body and mouthfeel.
I did apply the syringe “nitro-cheating” technique to a glass and damn if that did not help quite a bit. The beer definitely became softer and “rounder” on the palate.
So yeah, carbonation and temperature are out of line, but I still feel an unselfish addition of Flaked Barley or Flaked Rye would help as well.
ive experimented with low carbonation in beers a fair bit and its a weird thing - it definitely makes the beer in question very unique - for better or worse. i think its something that you, as the brewer and the drinker can get used to, but if someone else were to try it they might go “oh this is weird, this doesnt fit my expectations”.
i know there are others here who have a lot more experience with english beers fresh and english (or any applicable country really) cask ales.
i think its absolutely something people should consider, and i am considering very very low carbonation for an upcoming 9% oaked beer.
however, i find there is a certain line i’d guesstimate at ~1.5 or so where a drinker would say “oh this beer is carbonated” if higher and if lower say ~1.3 “oh this beer isnt really carbonated”
Late to this thread, but I will throw out a recipe that Chris Colby, former editor of BYO, posted in the Brews & Views forum in 2004. Its pretty good. Seems like us old guys should be passing on brew knowledge that we learned 20 years ago, eh, Denny?
Here’s my favorite time-tested recipe. I’ve brewed this 15 times since I started my homebrew notebook. I served it at my wedding reception dinner and everyone loved it. A couple years ago, it scored a 46 in the first round of the national homebrew contest. (Of course, it was judged by two novice judges and – judging by their handwriting – they were hammered.) Still, a fine fermented grain beverage. — Four O’Clock Porter (6.3 gallons) Ingredients 10 lbs. 2-row pale malt 2 lbs. Munich malt (20°L) 12 oz. crystal malt (30–40 °L) 5 oz. chocolate malt 3 oz. roasted barley 3 oz. black patent malt 14 AAU Northern Brewer hops 1.2 tsp Irish moss 12 oz. molasses 1/4 stick brewers licorice Wyeast 1968 (2 L starter) Procedure Mash at 153 °F for 60 minutes. The pH of the mash should be 5.2-5.4. Recirculate for 10 minutes. Fly sparge with 170°F water. Collect about 6.5 gallons of wort, add water to make a little over 7.5 gallons. Boil for 90 minutes, add hops at 60 minutes left to go. (Sometimes I add about 1/4 tsp of gypsum at the beginning of the boil.) Add Irish moss, molasses and (crushed) brewers licorice with 15 minutes to go. Chill wort, aerate and ferment at 68°F. Bottle or keg and age for 2-3 weeks. The finished beer should look good, smell great and taste fan-f^%$&ing-tastic. If it doesn’t, you’ve done it wrong Chris Colby Bastrop, TX
I feel this. I spend some time on Reddit (gasp! I know!), and often it feels like I receive almost as many downvotes as upvotes. Conventional wise-ass hipsters on Reddit there, who would’ve thunk it.
reddit is utterly loathsome to me, i do use it a lot to get information simply because of its breadth of topics and Q&A style. but i have posted some serious topics there before, carefully and soberly worded (and sometimes not so carefully so), but if it is controversial or as you said, goes against the status quo/existing structures it gets hyper downvoted, tons of idiotic negative unthinking negative replies along the lines of “stop complaining, just accept things without questioning” etc. i hate the site. 4chan gets tons of hate but is literally a much friendlier place, it just isnt as searchable in google for topics.
What is impressive about /r/homebrewing is that a number of people were successful in updating (and so far, maintaining) the wiki/FAQ. Those names are good names to follow. I ‘follow’ those names (and a couple of others) by watching their “recently posted” list. Yes, these names also get down voted a lot.
I will also bookmark interesting titles from “new”/“hot” then read them after the topic has fallen off the first page or two of the “new”/“hot” list. Often the best replies show up a couple of days the original post.
After more than a 10 year break from homebrewing I plan to re-join the craft. Your discussion (including the reference to Chris Colby’s Four O’clock Porter) runs very close my target brew. I want to brew a clone of the Guinness West Indies Porter. It is not available in the US, but I tasted it at the brewery in Dublin. The Guinness website lists 6% alcohol, aroma as toffee caramel with slight chocolate notes, appearance as ruby red with a frothy head, and taste as complex but smooth and mellow with a sweet, chocolate flavor. I contacted White Labs yeast and although they have not analyzed WIP they recommended WLP004 for yeast. The site homebrewinguk.com had this proposed recipe:
West India Porter
9lb Maris Otter
4.6lb Crisp Brown Malt
1lb Victory Malt
1lb Crisp Chocolate Malt
.9 oz Columbus at 70min
.35oz Columbus at 40min
1oz Willamette at 0min
1oz E. Kent Goldings at 0min
Have you tried any recipes like the above with 30% brown malt??
