I see a number of AIH (aka homebrewing.org) recipes call for Lyle’s Golden Syrup. Substitute for an all grain brewer?
Thanks.
It’s not a substitute for a grain. There was an old misconception among American homebrewers (apparently not dead) that Lyles Golden Syrup was the same as the invert sugars used in British ales. It is most definitely nothing of the sort. But you just can’t replicate many British beers without the various invert syrups they use, they contribute a distinctive and essential part of the flavor profile.
I’d just add that the proper invert is not hard to make. There are a cpl different methods.
So, Lyles is not invert? I was just reading about sugars to add to a bitter. I went with table sugar but thought I should get some Lyles next time.
I guess I’ll have to learn to make my own.
You don’t “need to” it’s the same as adding sugar or maple syrup or corn syrup, with its own minut flavoring if any. Its not a complete game changer if that’s what you are expecting.
I actually think Lyle’s is invert sugar. …just not the same as what the English brewer’s use(d). Here’s a thought: Invert Syrups: Making Your Own Simple Sugars for Complex Beers - American Homebrewers Association
In many hardcore English beer circles, those words would get you thumped. [emoji23] Many believe it is the game changer.
Either way, it’s easy to make at home …and a whole lot cheaper.
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In many hardcore English beer circles, those words would get you thumped. [emoji23] Many believe it is the game changer.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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Ya I don’t doubt that :). … but it’s one of those things that sounds secret and great… then just meh when you use it.
Lyle’s is partially inverted. It can be used as a substitute for invert #1. I’ve used Lyle’s in many Bitters, I think it brings something to the beer.
Invert #3 is what most Brewers use in the UK. It is cooked for a longer time, and is dark. It doesn’t make the beer dark, in my limited experience.
I’ve made invert #3 at home. It is not too hard. It takes some time.
My recommendation if you are going to make invert sugar, especially the darker #3 or #4, that you make a big batch. While making invert is not difficult it does take time and it takes the same amount of time to make 5 pounds as it does to make 1 pound. I make 5 pound batches and split that up into 5 mason jars. A one pint mason jar neatly holds 1 pound. Anytime I get the whim to make an English beer I can just go to the cupboard and grab a jar of invert and not have to spend an hour-and-a-half making it.
Yep, as Jeff said, according to my can of it its partially inverted, whatever that means.
Keep in mind your yeast choice when using invert brewing syrups.
Several english yeasts cannot utilize maltose… and as such benefit from sugar to help increase perceived dryness - like London ESB. The character of the syrup really comes out nicely, but you may need to compensate some in the hopping and malt bill. I have not found BeerSmith to be very predictive with these yeasts - so plan to rebrew to tune up the recipe.
Other yeasts, like West Yorkshire, seem to produce a different and less ‘caramel’ flavor from the invert, at least in my brewery.
I suspect that invert + “the right yeast” help to produce that unique English mouthfeel and head, even with the low carbonation.
FYI - I have great success with Lyle’s and Jeff has inspired me to make my own invert next round.
Yes, I have to try that London ESB.
A local Brewer does historic beers, many are Ron Pattinson recipes. He got a candy maker to do some for him, small batches. He liked the results and will make bigger batches himself.
Golden syrup is a roughly 2:1 blend of lightly caramelised invert and non-invert sugar. I shared a video from Ragus about its production here : https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/golden-syrup.655474/
It was widely promoted by some of the early British homebrew writers not as The One True Substitute for invert, but as a readily-available “hack” that at least was closer to invert than white sugar. Since syrup can be found in any British kitchen and is literally sold side-by-side with sugar in any British supermarket, those old writers were simply saying “since you have the choice when shopping in the UK, buy this rather than white sugar, it’s a bit closer to what really gets used”. However the hacks intended for a local audience then transmute into gospel when they go overseas…
Syrup does have a distinctive taste, although it’s delicate enough that it would be swamped by the buckets of crystal that US brewers seem obsessed with putting in British styles.
Well those recipes are trying to emulate the kind of recipes used by the big British commercial brewers in the mid-20th century, who were not all-grain brewers. However that has changed a bit - under pressure from CAMRA some have moved from using adjuncts in everything to saving them for speciality brews, and it’s benefited the beers. But 10-15% brewing sugar is pretty “traditional” in 20th century British commercial brewing.
So to that extent, you just drop it and replace with more base malt. But bear in mind that sugars act as “anti-crystal” to some extent, so if you lose the sugar then you want to reduce the amount of crystal as well. For instance, Fuller’s are now all-grain on their main partigyle that makes Pride, ESB etc and use 7.2% light crystal, which is about as much as I’d want without any sugar to balance it; conversely the famous Boddington’s of the 1970s was about 10% adjunct with zero crystal. That gives you an idea of the extremes, but a good rule of thumb when you’re starting out is to use as much sugar as crystal and then adjust to taste. But these US recipes that have 10+% of crystal in bitter are just nonsensical.
I’ve found a few DIY recipes on the net. Conflicting opinions. Does anyone have a recommended recipe for making my own Lyle’s Golden Syrup?
Thanks.
Sorry, wasn’t implying grain could/would replace the Lyle’s Golden Syrup. Attempting to convey, as an all grain brewing, I have flexibility.
Yeast = Wyeast 1968
Wow! Great info. Thanks for the input.
RE: London ESB, from Lallemond:
Maltotriose is present in wort in an average 10-15% of all malt worts. The result will be fuller body and residual sweetness in beer. Be advised to adjust gravities and mash temperatures according to desired result.
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[/size]I am not sure that the Wyeast is the identical product, but their description includes low attenuation.
Beer is the sum of all parts and processes, no?
If you really want Lyles Golden Syrup, it will be easier just to buy it. If you want one of the numbered brewers invert sugars, then you’ll want to make it. There have been threads devoted to this if you search the forum.