I’m brewing up a Märzen and hate the giant starters needed for lagers, so I’m going to rehydrate two packs of dry yeast. My M84 experience has been great, but I’m open to suggestions.
Edit: Since I noticed the poll doesn’t show up consistently on mobile, the choices are between:
S-189 Swiss Lager
M76 Bavarian Lager
M84 Bohemian Lager
W-34/70 Weihenstephan Lager
One smack pack of 2206 into 1L oxygenated 1.040 at 50F morning of brew day. No stir plate. Pitch the whole thing after oxygenating your marzen.
I’ve been using 34/70 for my Vienna Lager and Boston Lager homage with great success IMHO.
In a pinch I’ll use the 34/70 if I don’t have fresh WY2124 and I can’t really tell the difference. I’d use it in a Vienna any day.
I haven’t had great luck with the dry W-34/70. I think I might try the S-189.
What do you consider a giant starter? 2L well oxygenated should be the most you need, less if you use Jim’s method. I’d go with W-34/70 for ANY lager style, but NOT the dry version, it doesn’t perform like the original liquid cultures (readily avaiable as WY2124 or WLP830.)
The S-189 is really good in malty lagers.
Pitching half a gallon of dme starter beer into 5.5 gallons of carefully-mashed and boiled wort just seems like a waste. If I crash the starter and decant it, it takes more like 6L, which is too big for me or my stir-plate.
I use 1200ml only because I can my starter in 2qt jars. They are 1500ml water 150g DME. I leave the break in the bar. But honestly, 1L is enough, maybe even 750ml… I have not tried finding the low limit. I can’t imagine anyone would be able to detect the dilution of 1L 1.040 in 20L 1.060, or whatever your marzen is. I’ve never detected it in any style I’ve brewed from Helles to Barleywine.
By the way: With lagers, i chill my starter wort to beer pitching temp before oxygen and yeast, and keep it there. I don’t like the idea of dropping yeast temp while it’s active and still has work to do.
I crash and decant the 2L starters for my 1st generation. Like with Jim’s method, I’ve learned from folks around here the health of the yeast is more critical than the cell count. (On one thread or another it was pointed out that the difference between pitching 200 billion and 400 billion cells is like 90 min of lag time.) And I’ve found O2 at the start is actually more effective than a stir plate for growing quantity and quality. I no longer need two pieces of equipment that each seemed essential once: 3 gal carboy for big starters, and stir plate for smaller ones. (I am totally with you that I want no nasty dme wort going into my lager!)
I only use yummy DME [emoji41]
Honesty, the difference between crash/decant and pitch it, is probably just effort and time. I’ve done both and that’s the only difference I find.
Maybe I’m just being like a little kid who doesn’t want his different foods touching on the plate!
EDIT l must say, since Denny convinced me yeast rinsing is a waste, now I don’t even worry about diluting water (yeah that kinda bothered me, any tampering with my carefully crafted wort.) Felt great yesterday, just opened up my jar of harvested yeast, dumped it all in, knowing that was just my last batch of beer going in!
Probably it’s nominal, but it’s OUR brewery and we get to geek out or freak out on whatever we want.
I brewed a maibock with it a couple of years ago that got me the second highest score I’ve ever received.
I have switched from 34/70 to S-189 and prefer it in everything. It just seems to have more character to it even though I don’t have the issue with 34/70 that others do.
Please tell me it floccs better than 34/70. Use it in a pils yet?
I have had no issues getting it to clear well but didn’t have a problem with 34/70 either. I currently have a pilsner on fermented with 189 that is crystal clear.
I swear by S-189. Not a fan of 34/70. A Marzen is supposed to be malty and balanced. That’s what I get from 189. I have made brilliantly clear and deliciously malty Maibocks, Viennas, Oktoberfests, dunkels, even light lagers with it. Ferment at 12 C, do the fast lager method, and no problems whatsoever. Have never done a hoppy Pilsner, so I can’t say what it will do with that, but my experience with it has been very excellent!
Thanks gents. I will give S189 a shot. Very interesting looking if you look a data of both strains. S189 has 1% more attenuation…