Darn…I was trying to avoid that. My apology.
I knew Denny’s position vis a vis LODO going in, so it didn’t land so harshly on my ears. Like I noted above, I am doing some things to minimize uptake of oxygen and seeing pretty good results. I view both of the other steps (Brewtan B and GBF suggestions) as merely this - (i) additives that assist chemically to guard against oxidation or otherwise create potentially better tasting beer by binding with compounds and chemicals to minimize or eliminate occasional problems and (ii) processes which attempt to assist in guarding against oxidation and otherwise improve beer quality or stability.
As I see it, there is room at the table for all of this and I think Joe was saying that Brewtan B can help with a number of different things, regardless of what else you use or process you take to make your beer the best that you feel you want it to be (though some things may counteract the effect of others).
Some additives or processes are within one person’s horizon and beyond that same horizon for another brewer, who is content with his beer and feels that the additional marginal effort (be it process or additive) is beyond his needs or beyond what he wishes to undertake in this hobby without further proof of the extent of improvement to be obtained by the effort.
Totally agree. I think maybe things have gotten a little silly if we’re actually charting each others’ skepticism with minutes and seconds on a podcast. I mean, damn! Who cares whether other people are brewing the way you like? There is only ONE way to brew correctly - namely the way that meets your goals and capabilities. We’ve jumped the shark here on the peeing contest.
Edit for spelling poorly.
ynot you are a bard!
I’ve been homebrewing for two years so I’m still a newbie. But the beer I brew now is the best I’ve ever tasted (OK, not a high bar). And I’m always looking for a way to improve. But the lodo all or nothing…you have to do all steps fully or there’s no benefit doing any is very discouraging.
Agreed, it is discouraging. What about when you were brewing extract? Was all grain brewing discouraging because it required so much more equipment, time, and commitment? This is next-level sh*t, dude. No one said it was easy. But I know how you feel. I’m not there yet either; it’s a journey, not a destination. The fun is seeing the improvement in the beers.
With regard to my position, I want to make it clear since it was brought up…I don’t believe LODO doesn’t work, as as been characterized. I believe that eliminating O2 is a great goal. I remain skeptical of the LODO methods because all I’ve ever heard it “I tell you it works”…no objective proof, not even a little bit. In addition, the process is involved and laborious enough (for me) that I’m not interested in trying it until I see some proof. And it would have to make a quantum improvement for me to go through the process of using it. If someone else wants to use it, be my guest. But until you can show me objective proof, even a little bit, I will remain skeptical and continue to point out my skepticism.
Someone with your skepticism may be a mini-mash candidate:
http://forum.germanbrewing.net/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=301&hilit=Mini+mash
As far as complexity is concerned, you would agree that if you are already heating water to strike temp that an additional increase to boiling wouldn’t take that much more time, right?
As far as copper ICs, maybe Brewtan can still be added in the mash and boil to counteract the effects of using them for strike water chilling and boil chilling. That’s a thought experiment more than anything because I have SS.
Just food for thought.
You are right, of course. But I’m still having so much fun seeing all the sights on the “all-grain journey”. And there’s a lot of that journey left.
I’d bet that only a small fraction of the folks that visit this forum are ready to make the jump to the LODO level.
If the minimash was all it was, I’d likely do it. As long as it’s all or nothing, I likely won’t.
The mini-mash will give you an idea of the flavors to expect which would likely drive you to an assessment of your equipment and a decision to commit or not.
It certainly had that affect on me.
I am going to give it a “go”, as I have been trying to be low oxy on the kegging side for a few months now and that, alone, has been an improvement in stability, I believe. I have SMB in the granular form and will try to weigh out the right amounts, yet knowing what the stuff smells like in water (for sanitizing) makes me a bit uneasy that I might encounter a sulfur bomb with the wrong yeast…but I figure it is worth trying anyway.
I don’t have a stainless fermenter, so copper is unavoidable at this point…hoping for the best.
This one deserves an IGOR experiment.
I’m doing it soon, too. Got the powdered stuff also. But it’s gonna be in a way I can manage for my system - I’ll preboil and use SMB and Brewtan in mash and sparge, use a Saran mash cap, Brewtan in boil. Since I have no intention of replacing my copper IC anytime soon, I’m using the Brewtan primarily to (hopefully) chelate the copper’s oxidative effects. Based on reports I’ve read, I’ll use the full SMB dose for lagers, half that for ales, and adjust from there based on taste. All the talk is cheap, time to try it. I’ve tried other methods early on like hopstands that were deemed initially as wasted time and now are SOP for many brewers. I want to contribute pro or con from having tried it.
That’s great Jon.
I’ve got a killer Geuze. Wanna trade? It would probably cost the same for me to buy it from Australia.
Yeah, the Brewtan was cheaper than the shipping. Not surprising, I guess. I think it was just under $20 total IIRC. About enough for a dozen 5 gal batches, so it pays to buy an extra packet for $7-ish IMO.
There’s more to it than this.
The molecules in liquid water are held together by “relatively strong hydrogen bonds, and its enthalpy of vaporization, 40.65 kJ/mol, is more than five times the energy required to heat the same quantity of water from 0 °C to 100 °C (cp = 75.3 J K−1 mol−1)”
Obviously we’re not evaporating the entire batch, but bring to a boil requires additional energy. It’s very noticeable when you have 15+ gallons of liquor.
I’ll concede that I didn’t take into consideration the thermodynamic differences between my small batches (1.5 gal or less) and larger ones.
I have reservations if the IGORs would be interested.
Well I went ahead and made a Helles with the suggested process - to the extent I could comply. The wort was noticeably tastier than typical with this recipe. Looking forward to the final product. With copper chilling, it may not retain the “It” or whatever the difference is, but at the wort stage, I liked the difference.