I’ve always done starters for liquid yeast.
First time trying the new format of white labs. The container size looks larger than the previous style, but as I was pouring it a pretty small amount of liquid came out. I mean it looked about the same amount of liquid you’d get in one of the older packs.
It’s been in truth about 65 hours or so now and i’m just barely getting bubbles on top of a 1.050 wort.
i can’t believe white labs shot itself in the foot like this. this pack was $18.
Same thing has happened to me too many times. And it’s so damned expensive. That’s why I use dry yeast almost all the time now. Otherwise seek fresh liquid yeast and always always make a starter.
I also love dry yeast. Its super convenient, incredibly shelf stable, requires little or no aeration (not a bad idea to aerate for higher gravity beers IME) and can be used in a pinch without a starter.
But, for liquid yeast, freshness is what is critical (in addition to cell count). In the commercial brewing world we do not make starters–when using liquid yeast we order from the manufacturer (white labs/Wyeast/Omega, etc.) based on volume and OG then the manuifacturer overnights us the yeast shipped in a insulated box with cold packs. There is never a significant lag time when using a commercial pitch of yeast, assuming the yeast is used shortly after it is received. That’s how important it is for a commercial brewer to insure viability.
Homebrewers have a similar sense of urgency, but fewer options. If using liquid yeast without a starter, make sure it is at its peak freshness (no more than a month from its manufactured date) and always over pitch into a lower gravity wort to be on the safe side. Use that lower gravity beer as a “drinkable starter” and harvest that yeast for future batches. It takes some planning, but this is the best way to use liquid yeast, especially if not planning to use a starter.
This is also why I began using dry yeast years ago. I received one too many pitches of DOA liquid yeast.
My experience: I began competing in earnest last season, many many years after I began using dry yeast. I have medaled in 20 of 35 categories of beer in a little over a year and 3 months (31 competitions). 4 categories have yet to be judged — they’re upcoming (NHC and Colonial Cup) and the other 11 didn’t place. Every category judged (31) has scored 30+, 24 were 36-38, and 9 were 40+.
I realize competitions are a subjective crap shoot but it’s the best feedback loop I have. I’ll rebrew the ones that didn’t medal the remainder of this season into next yr. My goal is to medal in each category.
The old myth that liquid yeast is 2x better than dry (even though it’s 3x more expensive and still requires propping up) has been busted IMO.
Based on my results I don’t even consider liquid yeast — except Deiter by Imperial. I don’t think dry Kölsch yeast can touch it (even though I haven’t entered a Kölsch in competition).
I’ve noticed that their yeast does not pour very well out of the package.
Same here, liquid has gotten too darn expensive. Plus sprinkling a pack on dry yeast straight is so.much easier.
I still use both dry and liquid, probably 60:40 in favor of dry. But, as a 2.5 gallon brewer, I gave up on White Labs simply because I cannot justify the cost. That’s unfortunate because I really liked their selection.
Maybe I’m lucky, but I’ve only ever had one dead liquid yeast: a smack-pack that never swelled. I pitched it anyway, to no avail. sigh
Still, until I find dry equivalents that give me the same results as 1318, 1450, 1469, 1968, 2112, 3068 etc. I will continue smacking packs.
IMO, this is where the total reliance on cell count fails. These days, I take cell count with a grain of salt. A healthy active starter makes MUCH more difference. If you pitch one of those, the cell count will take care of itself.
@everyone yeah, not a surprise i’m sure but dry yeast BRY97 is essentially my go-to default yeast for beers where it’s about the hops or the grist. the definition of don’t worry about it - it’s going to do its job.
@homebrew_kev lol it’s the little things like that too. funny how we’re ~25 years in on this and still snipping plastic pouches and things.
@megary - i’m not giving up on liquid but i’m going to give this data point to my online HBS and request they stock even more of the local liquid yeast provider’s stuff. as it is cheaper, is a big simple pack and so far is excellent. it’s just they don’t have any belgian yeast types or expressive ones online for sale.
@denny - i forgot to indicate the best before date was some day late june 2025. so this wasn’t old yeast, and yeah it’s a great example of how vitality/activity is king vs. “cell count”.
I use dry yeast for 95% of my beers, just for reliability and ease of storage. White Labs is my preferred liquid yeast brand, because the San Diego is very close for me, so I don’t have to worry as much about the stuff getting baked or frozen during shipping. It has been reliable, but I always do a starter for liquid yeasts to verify vitality.
I too am using dry yeast more often then liquid yeast because of the cost and the need to make a LY starter. The only liquid ones I am still using are 1056 because I like the crispness of the flavor in my IPA (as opposed to US-05 which tends to be a bit peachy ito my palate), 2565 for my Kolsch because I haven’t found anything I like better, and 3068 for my Dunkleweizen (we brewed this beer at a local brewery here in FL with WB-06 and it didn’t get a lot of banana ester flavor until the beer warmed quite a bit, so the jury is still out on WB-06).
I am always curious when someone says US-05 gives a peach flavor: at what fermentation temperature?
I too used to detect peach so I moved to Bry-97 yrs and yrs ago. But then Tommy brewed an Amber Ale w/ it (based on Shark Bite I think) that was excellent. He recommended a higher fermentation temperature.
So, I recently brewed an American Strong Ale (based on Arrogant Bast…) with US-05 at 68-70°F and detected no peach flavor. I entered the beer in 2 competitions for a feedback loop. It took 2nd place at Peach State and 1st place at Beer Blitz.
Same temperature range. Full disclosure though, I have not used it in a long time. Maybe ought to try it again in the future.
I’ve usually run it between 62-68F and there’s always peach.
Wait. You had the beer evaluated at Peach State? I guess they would know peach flavors 
I made 6 US-05 beers in the last year. None had peach flavors that I could detect. I am no longer afraid of us-05. I still like Bry-97 also. So, I haven’t switched totally.
Yeah, I know there are people who don’t get or can’t detect peach flavor, just like I know there are a lot of people who do. But perception is what matters to me. No matter what I did, I still got it and didn’t like it. The easiest solution for me is to not use it.
That’s what’s so interesting to me and, based on Tommy’s beer, why I decided to ferment with it and submit it for judgement in two competitions. In Beer Blitz one Nat’l ranked judge scored it a 43. Maybe it’s subcategory specific. Maybe it likes Amber or Strong American (Amber) Ale. 
Very off topic, but for a while I couldn’t get Bry-97 at RiteBrew.com. They sold only US-05. That was the main reason I wanted to try US-05 again.
RiteBrew has cheap dry yeast and ships it cheap also. Now they sell both.
Agree!! I have been burned multiple times by White Labs yeast.
First time, a basic WLP001 that must have had extremely low viability - this was in the smaller package. I made a starter, but it never grew. Had to go back to the shop and buy 2 more packs that I pitched same day.
Second, I was making a stout, forget which strain but I believe just 001 again. This was the new larger package, so no starter used. When I was pitching, the color was totally off. The yeast was a greyish brown sludge with water - I gave it a day, no activity. Got nervous so went to the shop to buy 2!! more large packets of yeast because I didn’t want to risk another dud in the same lot.
Third, I used a pitch of lacto in the larger package format for a kettle sour. I had done this previously with white labs brand and it worked great, got pH down to 3.3 which was my target. But I made a repeat batch, exact same recipe and same lacto strain - this time no activity at all. Kept at 110F for 18 hours, just like the last batch, pH stuck at 5.2. Can’t trust it. Had to acidify with lactic acid on the back-end post fermentation.
I really like supporting my local San Diego based crew, but beware. Have been trying other brands as available at my local homebrew shop.
I’ve had nothing but good experiences with the new White Labs format and pitching only a single pouch with no starter (to the point where I’ve actually switched over from Wyeast - which I used almost exclusively for probably 18 years prior).
Living in Southern California, I do tend to get pouches that are only 2 or 3 weeks old, and maybe that makes a difference.