Message to the forum. from me.

General Homebrew Discussion
1

I didn’t want to pollute the LODO discussion any more. But I wanted to respond to this.

Thanks! I will strive to do better and your constructive criticism is very much appreciated. That said, please understand that we mods are simply doing what we feel is best to the health of this forum.  None of us are getting a power trip from this. We only do this because we love the art of brewing. And we deeply care about this community. Even the people who are angry at us (me) right now. Bryan (who is a long time invisible friend who I followed for many years because of his excellent brewing knowledge) and Derek.

I will strive to do better as a mod. And I appreciate the support of folks and welcome any criticism on my methods of moderating. I offered my resignation if that is necessary but Denny and Hoosier both threatened to fly down here and beat my ass.

2

I’ve always appreciated your input. It’s nice to hear from a pro brewer’s point of view who still contributes to the home brewing community.

3

That’s all anyone can ask Kieth. Good on ya.

4

I love your input and generally have no problems with the moderation here, Keith.  I think that there’s a lot of frustration going around in general right now (and not just about brewing).  My take is that there’s some lingering bitterness around the way the German brewing folks acted last year, and I was also guilty of taking it out on them in the past.

Just remember, it’s a new year.  Bryan has been helpful and answered questions from me, however stupid, with enthusiasm.  I think there is curiosity and the dogma has mostly been dialed back.  I’m the first to say that not everything applies at the homebrew scale, but, on the other hand some things are worse on the small batch size.

People ARE still stirring the pot, and that can’t go on.  So, really, ask yourself if you’re being helpful or being defensive when you post.  This goes for everyone.

5

This expresses my feelings on the matter perfectly, thank you.

6

Thanks for splitting this off from the other thread.  I’d still like to see some of the pure forum/moderator posts pruned from that thread because anyone reading across them in that thread is likely to use the ‘quick reply’ box and around and around we’ll go :D.

Back to some of the posts that were made in the other thread, I personally have no qualms with any of the moderator or administrator activity on this forum.  It’s a pretty tight ship but it sails smoothly and most of the crew is happy and “behaved”.  Some boards aim for minimal action (usually leading to a roudy crew) while others are too heavy-handed and smothering.  This board seems to “bridge the gap” (so to speak).

Disagreement is a requirement in life, and so it must be here - in a respectful and constructive manner.  If we all brewed the same then why would I continue to brew - it’s a creative outlet for me and when the creativity is gone then it’s just work.  This creativity includes what many folks joined up to do when they aimed to improve the german style beers they were brewing.  It’s an interesting process that was flushed out that’s still evolving - it WILL evolve - just like homebrewing WILL evolve.  The hot-side low oxygen game may go away in 2017, or may be folded into the new homebrewing methodology of the future - we shall wait and see I suppose.

With that said: Cool board, cool people, carry on! :cheers: :mug: (Edit: <–NEED those emoticons)

7

I agree with Narvin and Phil.

As mods, you need to understand that you are held at a higher standard and should behave as such. Have an opinion is great, trolling is not.

8

I do like the idea of the mods “pruning” off some of the obvious tangents/arguments/etc.  That said - I don’t know how practical that is for the mods… how much timed does that take?  Where is the line drawn?  Etc.

Honestly, I think one of the things that needs to be done is that everyone needs to just sort of reset, recommit to doing their part.  I know how easy it can be to get into a debate and end up off on a tangent.  I am guilty of it at times… I think we all are to one extent or another.

A forum is a collaboration of individuals, their question, their ideas, their explorations.  I think one of the best things that can happen is for everyone to simply recommit to being cordial, answer questions, share information, ask questions in a respectful way.  The mods can only do so much at the end of the day.  When something seems to be going a bit off the rails, any of us can take the time to post something meaningful to the OP and steer things back on track.  Instead of jumping in with a position on a developing argument - find something useful for the topic of the post.  All of us can make sure that the discussion in a thread is built around the original post.

Some of the best information I have found as a home brewer has come out of threads with contentious ideas and a lot of head-butting.  I remember some of the yeast threads and the information S. Cerevisiae shared…  All of what he had to say was not always well received - but what a wealth of knowledge.  I have made a couple preliminary attempts with the LoDo stuff and look forward to actually getting some things nailed down to try it again.  I think there are some potentially great ideas to be shared in that area.  Bryan has been very gracious in helping me with stupid questions, and they have obviously taken a lot of time to compile information for anyone interested.  I am neither “for” or “against” the concept… but, I definitely like the opportunity to learn more about something and will decide for myself how it fits my brewing in the future after properly exploring it.  I come to this forum to get the new ideas, the new thoughts, the more complex exploration…  So, I hope to see that continue.

At any rate, arguments can’t happen in isolation.  If 50 people are focused on keeping threads on track by offering relevant discussion, I think it becomes a lot harder for 2 or 3 people to derail things.

9

How much are we paying moderators?

How are they selected, election?

Where can we find their job descriptions?

How do we find out who all the paid up AHA members are and who is just a visitor?

How many of these questions do you think are rhetorical?

I consider our moderators as some of the best folks on here. I saw some others get under their skin and I don’t blame those who let it get the best of them. Some people are just hard to get along with. It looks to me that most folks are trying to move forward. Some haven’t really changed in 3 years…

10

Good god-thanks for starting a new thread!  I was getting ready to start a “Feelings Calendar” thread ala BN Network style!

I left the forum for about a year and apparently was fortunate to miss the SNS debate and the way Mark was treated.  I also missed the intro to “LODO” or whatever and the subsequent arguments this past summer.

This fall I got married and brewing a brides beer and grooms beer for our wedding inspired me to get back at it and get back into the forum.  When I returned the “LODO” stuff was new to me and I was very skeptical.  That’s my nature and the dogma said HSA was bunk.  I questioned Bryan hard but respectfully.  Then I did some Google-fu and realized oxidation has been an issue for quite a while.  I found dozens of papers on it and could have accessed more if I belonged to a pro association like the MBAA or BA.  I also acquired some brewing texts from AB and Miller from an estate sale and saw similar malt oxidation concerns there.  It’s real.  I found this out myself and even though I was skeptical of Bryan and others I’m not afraid to admit I was most likely wrong.

Keith,  I don’t know you.  My name is Brian as you can see I the signature.  You and Denny have given me great advice in the past.    You guys, along with other here on the forum have helped me make great beer.  I also thank the Brewing Network and a few close friends in KC and STL.

That said, you and Denny haven’t been impartial as moderators.  Its obvious to me, a forum member from the Bay Area has been stirring the pot. Then mods give an opinion followed by locking a thread.

Don’t give me crap about mods feeling as if they are censored.  We are the ones being censored.  It’s inappropriate for a mod to rant, then close a thread not allowing others to respond.  That’s censorship.

I belong to gaming forums and there are some young bucks as mods (some likely teenagers) that are a good example of how to moderate.  They simply give a short and respectful one sentence reason for the comment block or thread closing then step back.

It is my opinion if one wants to be a mod the person should recuse him/herself from certain conversations or at least be impartial.  I’m not trying to censor mods but as a mod there can be a conflict of interest.  I appreciate you Denny and Keith, and want your opinions but maybe not if it interferes with moderating.  Okay.  My feelings are out here.  Maybe we can have a beer together someday.  If anyone here is ever in the KC area send me a PM or email.  [emoji482][emoji106][emoji304]

11

I agree and disagree with everything said on this forum…Currently drinking a “Mom Likes It” Saison made with Jack LODO procedures…I’m on the third one…So triangle test in…The copper IC did not ruin it…

12

Stay on topic.

ETA - /sarcasm

13

I said that I wasn’t going to comment anymore on this whole fiasco, but I think I have something relevant and worth including here for posterity.

After the last fallout over this topic occurred late in 2015, things died down for sometime. Then it heated up again and Bryan and I in particular went at each other hard, so much so that I believe a few of those threads got locked as a result. I took a step back and deleted my account after rereading some of the vitriol thrown out there. In fact, I took a month or so off of reading anything brewing related. I even questioned whether I wanted to brew anymore. When I came back, I revisited the GBF documentation and with a cooler head, realized that I was very intrigued, yet still skeptical. I went to the GBF (for the second time) with my hat in hand (and pie on my face) and said I was going to try and be a contributor the best I could. You can understand that Bryan and the others there were not that interested in interacting with someone who trashed them as bad as I had. I kept at it, and I started to modify my spreadsheet to include some of the Low Oxygen basics. Eventually I got a message from Bryan with an interest in knowing more about the spreadsheet. If any of you have been around through all the previous BS, you know how unlikely Bryan and I talking about brewing seems.

So I went to “school”, learning about the basics of Low Oxygen, reading the texts, expanding the spreadsheet with Bryan as my β tester. You want to talk brewing knowledge? Here is how a typical conversation used to go:

Bryan: “I had some super fresh Paulaner tonight. Tasted fresh malt and grape flavor. I think I have an idea.”

Me: “What is it?”

Bryan: “Sauergut. I need to investigate Sauergut again.”

Me: “Nice. Let me know what you find out.”

The next day the guy built a Sauergut reactor in his basement with a spare fridge, controller and hair dryer. What?!?! This happened daily. Idea. Plan. Action. All the time. With his help I relearned brewing and built our spreadsheet into what it is.

What the hell does this have to do with what has been going on? Why does this matter in a conversation about what mods can do better? I’m getting there.

So one day I, for S&Gs, looked at the AHA forum and saw some inaccuracies and falsehoods being talked about in reference to Low Oxygen. I tried my best to correct them. People wanted to know about my change of heart. Around this time I had mentioned to Bryan that there may be a more receptive audience back at the AHA. Long story short we were back and a lot of information was being exchanged freely. People were receptive and excited. Bryan was giving out as much information as people could absorb. I was trying not to embarrass myself ([emoji16]). People were still skeptical but enjoying the approach, the free exchange and the renewed mood around the topic.

And then something distinct happened and many of you are astute enough to have noticed it. Someone came in and started in with some of the old nonsense. And I understand it well because I felt the same way at some point as well.

This is where the mods could have stepped in and taken that person aside and said, “You know we appreciate where you’re coming from and we agree on some of the same points, but we’ve gone down this road before and you don’t understand how much better of a situation this is now.”

That would have de-escalated  the situation and we could have continued on uninhibited. But instead, you egged him on, knowing that he was saying what you likely wanted to but wouldn’t, or felt you couldn’t, and we opened an old dead end.

Go back and read the first post on the Intro to LOB thread. Read the pages and pages of positive encouragement from Bryan to all kinds of forum posters. Read the positive results from those trying it. Now tell me when you read the breakdown. I think people have already hit on when it happened.

You guys are fallible. You are posters and moderators. But you should have seen this coming. Either you did and didn’t do anything or didn’t and didn’t do anything. Now it just seems like damage control.

14

^yes that one poster, who actually has on-topic contributions on other subjects, comes in to troll on anything about reduction of hot-side oxidation.  Then a mod reinforces his post with a smart remark.  Kidding and having fun?  Maybe so.  But not the best timing.

I’d probably otherwise get along with the person trolling.  It sucks none of us had the  maturity to step in and stop it early and objectively.  But most of us aren’t mods.  Even if we all were mods we’re all a$$e$ at some point.  I mean fallible.

15

I try not to double post but this is ridiculous.  I reported someone earlier today for being “off-topic.”  That was a nice way of saying “troll”.  I was going through my email a minute ago and a mod responded, “LOL.”  Really?  That’s constructive  and appropriate? I deal with this kind of stuff on a daily basis.  I don’t need that stuff here.

EDIT:  maybe that guy was being sarcastic and I have thin skin (I do).  But  c’mon man.

16

Curious who the troll was early on in the intro to lodo thread. I sped read about 35 pages and still didn’t see any trolling. Honestly I only care if you think it was me, so I can fix that. And I’m fine with whoever just saying it, if it was me. If it’s someone else I don’t care.

17

Someone else.

I’m so tired of this and ready for it to all be over.  It’s not even entertaining anymore.

18

I’ll say it.  Bay Area Brewer consistently comes in and details threads to start stuff.  Then Majorvices, Keith I believe, goes on a rant insinuating “LODO” proponents are the ones “hijacking” threads and uses the word “Nazi” describing them.

Inappropriate for a mod.  Also, anyone who compares someone to a Nazi in debate loses all credibility.  Even in politics that is ridiculous (okay maybe if the person is actually a Nazi it isn’t) but this is a hobby.  I vehemently disagreed with some of our political leaders in the past to the point of protesting.  But I always called out those comparing people to Nazis. It’s a joke on Seinfeld but not in real life.

19

In all honesty, the whole LODO thing throws me off. I don’t really believe it right now, and haven’t experienced in comparisons in person to be shown the errors of my ways. My only interaction with it are online, and the zealotry and holier than though phrasing used makes me just leave the thread as soon as I see LODO mentioned in more than two posts. I avoided these forums for a good 4-6 months as a result, and will likely do so again if it continues.

As far as moderation goes, the above is not appropriate behavior for a mod. There’s plenty of posts that I don’t agree with, but rarely find offensive. I just have learned by now that if it comes up, it’s likely to derail the thread and I’m just going to go elsewhere until the topic comes up again in a new thread.

20

Adding an opinion that nobody asked for or probably wants, since I tend to stay completely out of forum arguments…

I don’t know what to think of LODO.  I know that I’m not super interested in pursuing it at this time, as I’m focusing on other aspects of my brewing, and I have not properly educated myself on it.  I know that LODO got off on a bad foot with a lot of people, as it not only flies in the face of some of the conventional brewing wisdom, but due to the nigh cult-like condescending attitudes of some of the advocates of it.

That said, I have tried several times to replicate some German beers, and can get close - but not quite there.  I have a buddy that regularly wins medals (including at NHC) for his German beers, and he is also chasing the white whale of a Hofbrau Oktoberfest. Recently, he has started getting into LODO.  He reports a lighter wort/beer, and a difference in flavor.  Is it better?  Will that lead him to this promised land?  That remains to be seen.

But there is a lot of logic - and a fair amount of evidence - that there are at least some changes from LODO.  I will likely take some more in depth looks later on.

What does that matter?  It doesn’t.  I’m just one guy, brewing beer largely for my own consumption, right?

But it does seem to me that we ought to be able to (a) discuss differing processes, and (b) disagree about the relative merits of said processes, in a civil manner.  It’s okay to disagree, even to argue… but this stuff should never get personal.  We’re talking about beer, folks.  Have some perspective.  Name calling isn’t constructive, doesn’t strengthen your position, and is not beneficial.  Due to the age requirements to legally brew, we are all adults here (or are pretending to be).  We ought to be able to act like it.